Can you tell us a little about your background and how you ended up involved with the Popular Culture and Philosophy books?
ROBERT ARP: I first got involved in 2003 when two of my graduate student colleagues
at Saint Louis University, Jason Eberl and Kevin Decker, got a contract with
Open Court Publishers to do Star Wars and
Philosophy in their Popular Culture and Philosophy series; the one that was
started with Seinfeld and Philosophy
and then the wildly successful The
Simpsons and Philosophy. I have a
chapter in the Star Wars book about
droids and what constitutes personhood.
Bill Irwin was series editor at that point. He moved to Wiley-Blackwell and started The Blackwell
Philosophy and Pop Culture series, and my South
Park and Philosophy: You Know, I Learned Something Today was the first book
in that series. I have more than 30
chapters in these kinds of books, and I’ve edited another half dozen or
so. Hard to believe it’s been 10 years!
Do you think the current worldwide economic situation has helped the
positive reception of the show?
ROBERT ARP: Yes. The economic boon and boom
of the 1990s in the US and other Western nations gave us disposable income, and
we were living high off the hog. 2008 is
the year when Breaking Bad (BB)
debuted, and it’s also the year of the Great Recession in the US, which rippled
worldwide, no doubt.
Do you think Breaking Bad would have been a success in the happy-go-lucky 90s?
ROBERT ARP: Possibly not. Actually, it was The Sopranos that set the stage for
shows of the caliber of BB. So, if it wasn’t for The Sopranos, I don't think BB would have been as successful.
Do you think there’s such a concept as the “morals of crime”? If it’s done for a good cause or out of desperation
–like Walt did- should the crime be regarded differently?
ROBERT ARP: No. Even though a part of us
wants to be like Walter White (WW), imagine if he was actually living next
door. Anyone would think what he does is
immoral (as well as illegal), and that he’s got to play the cards he’s been
dealt in a moral way. It’s fun fantasy
stuff, but has to stay there in the fantasy world. WW actually has other options for taking care
of his family after he dies, and we all know this. In other words, things are not so determined,
bleak, and “hands tied”-ish as the plot makes them out to be. We just “willingly suspend our disbelief” for
the sake of the show.
However, consider this: A man’s wife is dying of an illness, and needs a
specific drug. The local chemist has the
drug needed to cure his wife, but the man can’t purchase the drug because he
can’t afford it. And the chemist won’t
give the man the drug. The man breaks
into the chemist’s office, steals the drug, gives the drug to his wife, and his
wife is cured. Now, a question: Is the
man breaking bad in his actions here?
Can you tell us about the 2 or 3 philosophical ideas that can be found
most often in the show?
ROBERT ARP:
(1) Utilitarian moral thinking. Utilitarians think that the moral decision
is the one that brings the most pleasure/benefit/good consequences to as many
people as is possible. WW is constantly
using this kind of thinking, and there’s lots of recurring tension between
utilitarian thinking and other moral theories and thinking.
(2) Personal identity over time. What
makes WW be WW? Is he the same person
over time at the beginning of the series as he is in the 3rd or the
5th season? Are WW and Heisenberg
really the same person?
(3) And, of course, the morality and legality of drug usage. Should rational adults be allowed to ingest
what they want, free from legal sanctions?
In your opinion, are there any characters or
real persons (fictional or historical) that are similar to the Walter White
character?
ROBERT ARP: Something close to Breaking Bad
was revealed at the end of 2011 when a 74-year-old university mathematics
professor and her 29-year-old son were charged with cooking meth in their
Somerville, MA home. The professor would
use old Snapple bottles in the meth-making process, and one of her ex-students
noted that, “she has never taught a class where she wasn't drinking from
Snapple bottles.”
As Heisenberg, we see how Walt starts to behave more confidently. Is
there any philosophical doctrine centered on behaving like an external
character instead of as yourself in order to accomplish certain things?
ROBERT ARP: There is the “fake it till you make it” idea in Aristotle’s virtue
ethics whereby we have to practice virtuous actions over and over and over
until it’s second nature and we become virtuous. The same goes for vices, too. Any good or bad habit can be a kind of “I’m
not myself” experience. Think about rock
musicians who live long enough to be able to look back on their debauchery and
say, “Man, I was a different person back then.”
Walter White is usually seen as a sort of hero despite the fact that we
all know that he’s not acting well. What do you think are the reasons for that?
ROBERT ARP: WW is in one sense, just like every one of us, and in another sense is
what we’d all like to become, at times.
He’s like every one of us in that we all have money problems, all suffer
from disease at some point, and all probably think we’re not appreciated at
work and at home, at times. He’s what
we’d all like to become when he’s Heisenberg, exacting revenge, kicking asses,
breaking the law, and breaking bad.
We’re animals at root, so Heisenberg taps into that state of nature,
survival of the fittest, “I’m going to drink and screw and dominate and raise
hell” part of our animal nature. That’s
why we resonate with him. Having said
that, we are more than mere animals; we’re rational animals. And we know we can’t all live like
Heisenbergs—otherwise, life really would be hell.
According to the critics, one of the best
things about the show has been how the characters evolve. Can you link Jesse
Pinkman’s role/character’s features to a philosophical idea or school of
thinking in each season?
(Answered by DAVID R. KOEPSELL)
(Answered by DAVID R. KOEPSELL)
SEASON 01
We definitely see Jesse evolve greatly during the run of the show. In
the first season, he pretty readily latches onto Walt’s role as teacher,
perhaps demonstrating the Platonic ideal of scholar and student, but certainly
that of Father to son.
SEASON 02
In season 2 we see Jesse start to come into his own, rebel against Walt
inasmuch as his relationship with Jane blooms. I’m going to claim that now we
start to see Jesse as Aristotelean, experimenting, growing through his own
inquiry and means, but still somehow immature and dependent upon his teacher.
There’s more democracy in the relationship, so the Platonic aristocracy is cast
aside.
SEASON 03
Jesse becomes an existentialist quite suddenly, with the death of Jane,
his getting clean from drugs, and the sordid business of offing Gale. How else could he face the apparent meaningless of his existence, and
the snuffing out of an innocent?
SEASON 04
Pinkman is now a man, come into his own right, and ready to challenge
Walt as never before. Rebelling against his teacher, he is filled with
righteousness and clearly wants to dissociate himself from Walt, latching onto
Gus and Mike as alternative, positive role models. These two seem to live by a
code, and a more honorable one than Walt who Jesse starts to see as motivated
by more than just providing for his family. Perhaps Jesse is adopting a Kantian
morality, seeing duties as categorical, and rejecting the notion of using
others as means to ends.
SEASON 05
Finally, Jesse wants out, wants to clean up in all ways, and be free of
the moral decadence that Walt has fallen into. He seeks redemption, he is even
willing to step away from all the money he has coming to him just to be free. He
is a human, and a humanist, perhaps Christian or secular, but embracing the
highest ideals of what he could become, the notion that he can evolve, and that
he can surpass his teacher. In many ways, Jesse’s evolution mirrors Walt’s
devolution, and the student remains at the end of the first half of season 5,
more admirable than WW.
Do you think Skyler’s role can be
linked to some sort of feminist approach?
ROBERT ARP: I’m sure she can be linked to feminism in a better way than I am able to
articulate. But insofar as the feminist
movement turns many of the stereotypes and prejudices of women on their heads,
then Skyler does a good job of that, yes.
Now let’s make a bet. How do you
think the show will end in general terms?
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